John Douglas Thompson Two
Passion and Politics
By: Charles Giuliano - Nov 08, 2010
Charles Giuliano We have gone back and forth about the opening of Richard III. No need to go back over it. But this time, what about the water? (A trough dividing the stage) Does that work? It felt gratuitous. At the beginning of the second act you used it for one scene. Then, as a theatrical device, it seems you were stuck with it. The stage hands come in and keep putting down sections of plexi over the water. As a device it seemed more like a distraction. Was it an option that really helped the play? What was the metaphor? What was being conveyed?
John Douglas Thompson That is part of the design. It is something you work out as a part of the collaboration. The water thing is almost as if I stopped walking on land and then I’m down by the water by the shore. Historically, this battle (Actium) happened at sea. It is me stepping off of hard land and into water. In a way trying to wash off the shame, the guilt that Antony feels about what he has done. From my perspective that’s really clear for me. It may not be clear for you. So in my mind it is just a matter of taste. This is just something you didn’t like. That’s ok you didn’t like it. It’s the same as me lying down on by back (opening of Richard III). It’s a taste thing.
CG It’s not a matter of like or not. It seems that the moment was effective. (When Antony steps into the water and seemingly bathes and cleanses himself). After that you were stuck with staging that had to be worked around with the stage hands coming in and putting down sections of plexi over the trough of water to unify and expand the stage.
JDT Then the water is also representative of the Nile. Or the body of water between Rome and Egypt. So it has many different levels to it. It’s just something you didn’t get. Or maybe you got it and didn’t appreciate it. Which is fine. I’m just trying to figure out where you want to go with this. I get that you didn’t like it.
CG I’m saying that it appears to have a moment that works and then becomes a distraction. Because it is a device that is so prominent on the stage.
JDT Yes, and that is to you. But to us, who worked with it, that’s not the case. Nor is it to me. But I understand it is to you. I don’t know what else I can say other than if you want to see the water used better direct the play. You direct it Charles.
CG How about the casting?
JDT The casting is uniformly excellent.
CG Is the love story believable in terms of the age of the actors? I don’t feel the chemistry that one associates with one of the classic romantic couples.
JT It wasn’t for you. Which is what I understand from your line of questioning. You give yourself away. It wasn’t the romance that you wanted it to be. A lot of people think of this as a great romance and on one level it is. But it is a political union in a sense. It becomes a little more desperate after Actium because Antony doesn’t have anything now. He no longer has a connection to Rome and he has to rely on Cleopatra for a lot of things.
Let alone the love that they have. He needs her ships. He needs her money. He needs to feed his soldiers. She is his only political ally. Mixed into her being a political ally is the relationship he has with her. It is pretty dangerous territory. I wanted to express that there is a certain desperation because you are dealing with a man who is like an old lion and now he is getting cornered. People are going at him and he is striking out. In any way he can. So the relationship does not have to be one of constant heat and passion. It has evolved into something politically. Our ages are fine for the love story so I don’t have any misgivings about that. From my perspective I believe in that and it makes absolute sense to me. It may not make sense to you. Which, once again, is your prerogative.
CG Did you read the Jeffrey Borak (Berkshire Eagle) review? He specifically discussed your ages which is how I learned that you are 47 and Kate Mulgrew is 54. I think in terms of the historical Antony you are about the right age.
JDT I’m trying to remember how old he was when he died. My age now you’re saying? Yes, I’m pretty accurate.
CG Looking at the historical Cleopatra she had previously had an affair with Caesar.
JDT And probably Pompey.
CG How much time lapsed between Caesar and when Antony arrived in Egypt?
JDT There was a gap. It’s not like one year. We have to look at travel itself. Back then it took time. Antony is out fighting wars. I don’t know how much that gap of time is.
CG But a significantly younger Cleopatra was involved with Caesar.
JDT Let’s say a decade.
CG Given her early affair with Caesar (21) she was probably still young when he became involved with Antony. (She died at 39). The way that the Egyptian royal line worked it was passed to the oldest daughter of the primary queen. Her husband becomes pharaoh.
JDT Yes and Cleopatra had her sister killed.
CG She had her brother killed (two actually).
JDT Yes, and her sister.
CG Her brother was supposed to be pharaoh but that entailed her marrying him. Then Caesar supported her as queen.
JDT I also know she had her sister killed. She wanted me (Antony) to kill her and she did manage but I wasn’t involved. I expect that she was older.
CG Speaking of Cleopatra the perception is that she was one of the great beauties and seductresses of all time. We have the image of her floating down the Nile on her pleasure barge and inviting Caesar to join her. So I am struggling with that image.
JDT Well. I think you should open your mind. And accept that Kate Mulgrew is a fabulous Cleopatra.
Astrid Hiemer I just want to say that there is a lot more politics involved than love. It’s all about them manipulating each other. So he comes to meet her with an army and nothing else. So it’s all about politics.
JDT You’re sitting next to your wife. How come you can’t get these things?
CG She’s been asking that for years.
JDT Were you watching the same play. You might have gotten hung up on the age thing which I guess, as a critic, it’s your right to look at that.
CG I would say it involves the casting.
JT It was their decision to do it. Tina Landau (the director) and Kate. She wanted to do this. As do most wonderful actresses.
CG Look at Tina Packer doing Cleopatra in her 60’s. There is nothing wrong with the actress playing the role. The question is, as a member of the audience, buying into and accepting the illusion. I would say it is not only a right but perhaps my obligation to ask the question.
JDT The only answer that I can give you is that ultimately it wasn’t something that you wanted to buy into.
CG How did you feel about working with her and the relationship you had?
JDT It was great it was perfect. But maybe not in your eyes.
CG Don’t try to look through my eyes. Look through your eyes.
JDT What we are portraying is an older couple. Who in many ways are kind of confused. But their motives are in the context of a relationship and trying to figure out moment by moment what is their relation. First and foremost before we are the individuals which we are, we are political animals. She’s one and I’m one. There are always these stories in Shakespeare characters where they have to leave their home or their base to go out and find who they really are. So Antony is more himself in Egypt than he is in Rome. Like the people in As You Like It who go from the castle into the forest of Arden. Then they find themselves. That’s who they really are in nature.